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 Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:43 pm

Since I am the one that unintentionally started this fire, I would like to address something here and now. Despite how my words look, this was not trying to intentionally bash or lay blame on this or that. I was not trying to make this into a huge community debate because honestly, the core issue was something that could be resolved by laying down ground rules both for staff and members and pretty much what Jack stated. That was my whole point and why I was stating the site as a whole was going down a path I did not agree with. I stated my opinion hoping staff could get something resolved to help the site as a whole.

This was never meant to be public nor was it meant to block community. If I wanted it to be a public debate I would’ve placed it out in the open. In fact I posted it in the staff board because I was under the assumption that anything placed under a board with that name was indeed for staff alone to see; however, I was wrong and just learned a lesson the hard way about how it worked. So yes I will apologize for the fact that it was placed in the wrong place and that so much was exposed to the public eye. I didn’t do it with any intention of holding things back from the community to comment on. I wasn't placing it up there to rub something in people faces and then let no one have a say at it. That is not what I was doing. Honestly, I placed it in the wrong spot. I admit to the mistake, so please don’t start wars of distrust with the staff simply because I made an error. Honestly they didn’t have nothing to do it with. I started it with stating my discontent.

That said, my point still stands.

Things need to be resolved and the fact that more than one person is agreeing with me that some form of rules should be laid out for both staff and members shows it is something to be addressed. Now I can’t take back what I said and I won’t honestly, but I would like to see a forward movement instead of lashing out at things that isn’t the core issue. I was not trying to be sneaky or thin skinned and whinny petty or whatever the hell you want to call. I had a legit concern and stated my opinion on the matter to bring forward an issue I wanted resolved. I thought it better to not bring it to the public because I didn't see the issue as something worth stirring the pot with because it is honestly smaller than what people assume I was saying. That is the reason I put it in the staff room for the staff to discuss, but now this happened. So I'll admit to my error and press on from here.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:55 pm

Well, uh, because friendship isn't always magic Jack? I mean, getting along is cool but yeah, sometimes people have to solve their differences clearly too. Otherwise it's going to keep festering under the surface and cause a general unease, and well...eventually crashes like this one?

Either way, I actually wanted to make a P.S. to what I posted a moment ago (because like I said, slow mode and me really like each other.)

This is in regards to the whole problem about members supposedly bashing on mods and seeing them as not good enough etc. While yes, Jerry has a mild point that it indeed sometimes happens, and like Azami says, criticism can be of use (if it's constructive instead of just plain whining that you aren't satisfied that is), for me that has actually never been the main thing when it came to this matter. Not at all.

In fact, my biggest problems is not others coming and telling me I suck as a mod...but the fact that due to the way we are organized, I just know I do. I have enough of a high standard for myself, and I would like to think that someone who deserves to be a mod and actually be able to back up this authority of theirs...should well, really know how to deal with shit and how to answer to shit. And yet, so many times, I find that I cannot be sure on a grading/ruling that seems simple at the first glance, because I somehow don't know/don't have the neccessary info to pass the judgement without being highly worried that I may be making a big mistake there. When you find that so often, you gotta pull your tail between your legs and run to the mod chat group and ask everyone else whether you're correct and watch it actually take a while to come to a final answer...can you truly feel like you're a real mod? Cause I personally don't need others to tell me I'm incompetent, because the situation alone makes me realize I fucking am. And that is what I hate the most in the end. I can't feel like I should be a mod, or that I have the right to be super assertive when I may only force someone to do what I say and end up being a stupid fool when it comes to light that I was utterly wrong in what I said. It doesn't make me want to not be passive, because I can't be sure of myself, and therefore cannot do what I am expected to flawlessly. That in itself just hits the nail on the head the hardest for me.

If I am to flail around like an incompetent ass and have to ask everyone around me (tbh, sometimes a normal players knows the answer better than a mod, and that says things), I don't even want to be a mod. If there is anything I hate, it's feeling like I'm incompetent as all hell, while still expected to come across as a self-confident rule/ban enforcing staff. I mean, yeah....

(Also yeah, I think we can all agree there Deshi. Some things just happen to get where they originally didn't go, but maybe that is a good thing long-term.)

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:26 pm

So after giving it some thought, I've come up with a solution to what seems to be two of our main problems: cliques and, uh, memes I guess.

Part of the reason we have so many cliques is that people have to organize their own means of private OOC planning for their faction. The method they employ tends to be creating a Skype group, which is fine on its own right, but since it's run entirely by the members that are a part of the group it tends to lead to them letting their own biases decide who does and doesn't get in the group. There's a way to fix this though: Discord. On Discord, you can make certain text channels (categories/sections of the server) only accessible to users with the proper role assigned to them. So, for example, if you made a Cadet text channel and a Cadet user role, a member of the server wouldn't be able to see or post in the Cadet text channel until they had the proper user role assigned to them by the admin/mods/whoever. Once they did, they'd be able to access it fully, and see everything that's being said there as well as offer their own input. Think of it like how hidden boards work on the forum; if you aren't a part of the user group, you won't be able to see or interact with the hidden board, but if you are then it'll be just like any other part of the site for you.

By doing this, we could have it so the various factions/groups have a private section where they can plan and discuss things in secret, while at the same time ensuring that access to that private section would be granted to everyone with a character in that faction who wanted in (as opposed to whoever the creator of the Skype group likes and doesn't like). Of course, this would partially be an honor system, since people with characters in multiple factions could theoretically abuse it to feed information from one side to the other. However, if we're willing to take that risk and if people are willing to actually join the Discord, then this could work to combat the cliques and the feelings of being left out or irrelevant that some members have.

As for memes, on Discord you're able to mute certain text channels so that you won't receive any notifications from them. Taking this into account, we could make a separate text channel for jokes/memes, which would allow people to continue general chatting without having to worry about being bombarded with shitposts or an overly unserious environment.

Effectively, the goal of making this would be to replace the chatbox and Skype groups. People might have to adjust to it a bit more, but overall Discord offers a lot more options and a more enjoyable experience than either (while also being quicker to sign up for and use than Skype is). As long as the community would be willing to make this move then it could easily tackle these issues.

We do have a Discord already, but considering the person who made it is long gone, I'd suggest just abandoning it and creating a new one from scratch. Anyone could create it, but it'd probably be best if it was left to either a staff member or someone familiar with how to set up a server like me ayyyy lmao. Again though, this is assuming people are interested in this solution.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:28 pm

Princess Jerry wrote:
From what I've seen, no, we haven't really been punching bags per se. But I remember the outcry from some people when we were dealing with some troublemaker, and people jumping to this one's defense, even though the troublemaker had been warned several times.

Let's just give names to the faces you're talking about so it makes it easier for the people to know what's the exact issue at hands. We're adults here and as much as we want to avoid unnecessary conflict, we can take full responsibility for our actions and what we say, that's what I intend to do. So, the "outcrier" is moi and the troublemaker is we-all-know-who. I'm not here to cause a ruckus and defend Telos, or even make this about Telos and deviate the thread from what truly matters even though by this point it became a community issue as a whole. In all honesty this has been extensively discussed between me and him in private, I'm pretty aware of where he goes wrong even though I DO feel that YES, some of the reprimands towards him from a few authority figures here are unwarranted and bordering on childish picking based on personal feelings; I DO feel that some rules here are extra-reinforced and adjusted to certain members depending on your personal feelings about them and I've personally seen this flexibility more than once; last but not least, I DO feel ostracism goes on to the point of making use of straightforward rudeness that technically isn't expected, not only because it comes from people with the relevant position they keep, but because it's a basic rule of coexistence. I've had staff members know my position on this in private, some do share the same feeling, some don't and my mindset will not change. However, the situation being referred here was far from senseless whiteknighting. It was Telos being accused of voting on himself for some poll created and upon some pressure, him being chastised for confessing it, even though it was specifically in previous occasions stated by Philemon that she, as the site's technical headmaster, doesn't mind it. The longest she said on the matter is that "it's a sign of self-confidence". When I saw him being cornered about something not even Philemon cares about, something that didn't have any specific written rules related to (like 90% of our current rules), yes, I defended him. Your opinion on whether voting for yourself in a poll is/isn't a sign of bad character may vary; the point is: there wasn't any verbal rules about it, the headpiece stated she saw no problem with that and in my interpretation it was nothing but unfair picking. I'm all up for going after troublemakers when they're INDEED making trouble. Now believe me when I say I don't intend to exploit what apparently seems to be a personal strife between a mod and a member, but since it was brought to the public "between the lines" even though I politely tried to solve it in private with virtually no success and it's verbally confirmed I'm involved, it's only fair that I can show the other side of the accusations.

Exiting now.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:46 pm

Wait, is Shun talking about the Mystery Dungeon poll? Jerry, please don't tell me you were planning on kicking/banning Telos from the chatbox for voting for himself on something like that. That's an insanely stupid abuse of power and, to be entirely honest, I don't think someone who considers that a reasonable response should be a member of staff (or at least one charged with judging OOC disputes). Mistakes are one thing, but that's just ridiculously poor judgement, and being a member with administrative powers and duties requires that you have some level of sensibility.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:57 pm

Azami Aihara wrote:
Wait, is Shun talking about the Mystery Dungeon poll? Jerry, please don't tell me you were planning on kicking/banning Telos from the chatbox for voting for himself on something like that. That's an insanely stupid abuse of power and, to be entirely honest, I don't think someone who considers that a reasonable response should be a member of staff (or at least one charged with judging OOC disputes). Mistakes are one thing, but that's just ridiculously poor judgement, and being a member with administrative powers and duties requires that you have some level of sensibility.

Yes, that's the one I'm talking about and no, I don't believe he was planning on that, I didn't say it either. However, there was some visible and harsh tension in the chatbox about it between said members and I intervened because you know why, my reasoning was explained already. That's literally all there is to it, there wasn't a fight, just a clash of opinions that remained civil on my end and logs don't let me lie.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:03 pm

Ah, my bad. I jumped to conclusions and associated "dealing with some troublemaker" with authoritative action since Jerry mentioned it as an example of staff being unjustly treated for some reason.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:26 pm

I'm going to just say something real quick and then move on with my day.

First and foremost, this isn't just Deshi's fault. I will take full responsibility for this as I'm the one who pushed her to post that thread. I was tired of us mods just chatting away in our private chat room and never really resolving any of the issues I've noticed and have it just be summed up as 'you're being petty' or 'it's not a big deal.' I wanted a conversation to happen between the mods and admins so that we could come to some kind of agreement, to dispel our concerns or to realize an overall problem and then do something about it.

Obviously, as Deshi said, this wasn't intended for the public to see. These were our opinions and that was that. We were in no way trying to rub it in anyone's face how we feel in a way that kept us from ridicule. It was an accident and that's that. And the reason why this was private was because, personally, I didn't 100% know if how I felt was right. I'm an emotional person as some of you may know, and I just really wanted the mods and admins come to a conclusion or agreement or something instead of us talking circles in the private chat. That gets us nowhere.

My intentions may have been wrong, and I'm sorry about that. But that's all I really have to say on the matter.

I agree with Safi as I find myself to be absolutely useless 90% of the times, and as seen in the mod version of this thread, I would be more than happy to ban/kick when necessary if there were some guidelines. Text is easily misinterpreted and so I don't want to just do something to someone they don't deserve just because I personally felt it was wrong. Judgement calls are needed in some cases, but with how we joke most of the time, it gets hard to tell what's what.

I also want to say I will always defend this community as being a good one. It has its faults, no duh, but it's no where near as bad as it could be. As Deshi said, her and I have seen certain things happen and we agree that we don't like the way NA is heading. I personally stated I believe it will eventually just flush itself out as certain jokes die and certain people leave. I mean, that's how communities always work and probably will always work. But I wanted some initiation to happen because we seriously don't do anything as staff. It's frustrating as we just sit down and do nothing and I'm literally at a loss as to what to do about that.

Again, I'm not going to restate what I said in the mod version of this chat as that'd be redundant and a lot of my points are already stated by Safi and Deshi. And that's that from me.

Again, sorry for this mistake and I'll personally do whatever I can to make things better. (If they already aren't. I don't know. I've been working all day...)
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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:03 am

This is mostly a response to anything that hasn't been said, mostly from Daichi, since I don't plan to reiterate anything I already said. I will say however I was not aware of the business with Jerry and Telos. Regarding the task to find other threads, I can't imagine it is as hard to find as you say. The update thread is in the updates subforum on the main page, the current rules and the thread which addresses any quick questions are under Vital Information. Look through topics, topics you are already recommended to look for when joining the site. A couple extra topics will not kill anyone when they are in the place they should be in. The idea that using a search bar means the act of searching is now hard to find in a forum website where there have been so many threads is insane to me. Ask questions if you missed something; we have a Q&A thread for a reason (which is stickied to the Updates section by the way). Even the Subtle Rules thread ends up being almost obsolete if people just wrote in questions regarding rules and have them answered. Adding in literally every conceivable scenario to every question on top of trying to make the rules coherent enough to follow is not gonna happen. The updates in the Subtle Rules threads make it easier to find and look into for the rules that were clarified. Now if the update does require something in the rules to change and it's not just an addendum or clarification of a rule then of course we will change it. We have an updates section for this, and to that end I will happily put the Subtle Rules and remind everyone of our Q&A section in a future update after this post. Adding another Table of Contents section when we already have the Vital Information for all the essential rules for beginning seems unnecessary to me.

Now to the Code of Conduct. This was a topic some time ago and I will explain again why I was against it before. I am a firm believer that it should be common knowledge that you shouldn't be a jerk; and that it should not need be said that there are consequences for such actions (that need to be enforced of course). Being a jerk gets you punished; however depending on what happens may determine how severe the punishment is. Making this system was just unnecessary, and it wouldn't change how I personally would act or judge situations nor would I doubt it changed the members' actions. Having said that I am not against putting one up with some help if people think it is necessary and if members cannot be trusted enough to act civilly without rules which tell them how to act.

We already reward players for multiple one on one social links by boosting a random stat by 4 points. There isn't a very strict judging system, usually it is easy to tell whether someone has formed a link. It involves learning more about each other and finding common ground. But it gets deeper as you go higher, so you can't exactly  "raise the requirement". It's quality not quantity so there's no real change to be made for social links. The idea that people can't just thread with their enemies is silly, I myself am threading with one now. It's not impossible, and never hurts if you attempt to reach out. It can lead to very interesting interactions. This is pretty much everything left I needed to say. Feel free to speak more if you have to.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:12 am

I think it's finally about time I pitched in, but not for the reason most people would think. I want to address a singular point to make plainly obvious that perceptions are more than certainly warped. The point I mean?

Lost wrote:
And I'm still at a loss as to approach how awful the community views RP as a whole. Are we just supposed to ignore the obvious factious ways and overall toxic view point most of the NCs in Endy have? Because, at the end of the day, they give the most grief to players and over all don't thread with people because it doesn't benefit them. This is bewildering and this needs to be addressed.

I'll let you see a single list that will disprove this point completely.

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4897-the-other-butterfly-shiina

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4882-first-clash-morning-shiina

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4155-lucky-day-shiina-maria

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4168-when-the-cherries-blossom-gabe#43361

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4186-pledging-athena#43787

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4273-secret-vices-gabe#44473

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4386-does-this-outfit-make-me-look-fat-gabe

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4474-lucky-clover-visit-athena

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4587-walking-under-stars-gabe

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4717-first-date-athena-x-gabe

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4820-not-as-spicy-as-you-gabe#51222

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t5223-get-on-the-fucking-bike-athena-gabe#56777

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4164-a-morning-jog-cecilia-hunt

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4461-chapter-1-reunion-brittie

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t5022-chapter-2-chatting-thru-texting-giogio

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4267-blinded-by-the-light-blaez-1-other

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t4452-childhood-memoriestoffee

If you weren't counting, that's a total of 17 threads, kindly provided to me by three other de facto Nyarlathotep Children. As the Nyarlathotep Wild Card, I personally cannot stand for plain slander to be thrown out there so widely over people I consider my friends and companions. Hell, I wouldn't be able to stand it even if you tried to slander RPers on the Terrorist's side.

Don't act like we're not RPing with anyone other than ourselves. I'm sure those threads are enough proof otherwise.

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