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 Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]

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Azami

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PostSubject: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:15 am

Lately there's been discussion in the staff room about toxicity within the site and the chatbox. Since this is an issue that affects the community as a whole, it only makes sense to open it up to the entire memberbase for discussion. The decision to make this something only staff could offer their input on was incredibly disappointing and downright idiotic if you ask me, especially since it'd only serve to strengthen any tension, distrust, and anger within the community by making them feel voiceless.

The moderators should treat the members with respect. Keep this in mind for the future because the way this was handled wasn't just mind-boggling, it was flat-out insulting, and it made you look like hypocrites.



Anyway, guilt-tripping aside, this topic exists so that we can discuss the issue brought up there together. If you haven't read up on what was said there then it goes without saying that you should before posting here. I have my own thoughts on the issues brought up, but I'll post them separately as to avoid cluttering up this introductory post.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:44 am

Azami Aihara wrote:
The moderators should treat the members with respect. Keep this in mind for the future because the way this was handled wasn't just mind-boggling, it was flat-out insulting, and it made you look like hypocrites.

Thank you very much for putting this into accessible words.
When the staff members themselves don't follow the basic rules they try to enforce for some reason or another, then you can't really deem the community as the sole problem of toxicity. With all due respect and honesty, the impression I'm getting from referred thread is that it's an unilateral issue where regular members are the problem and members with a degree of authority behave always in an extremely ethic albeit misunderstood fashion. It's not the case.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:13 pm

I can wholeheartedly agree that this should've been a thread for everyone to partake in. Note that it wasn't the entire mod base that put it in the staff room. It was the thread creator's decision. Either way, it was a poorly made one at that. And it's not the memberbase itself that's the issue in my opinion. It's the overall atmosphere that's the contributing factor. I for one, feel burned out, both by IRL issues and my duties on this site as a whole. Now, the question is: how do we solve it? Back when I joined, this community was warm and welcoming. After the transferral to Endymion, things have changed. Maybe it's the divided setting? I found Azores 1 fun because everyone was mostly working on the same side, which caused less tension, and a more relaxed RP environment. I'm not saying this applies to everyone, since this is just my personal experience with the matter.

Either way, I don't think it's the memberbase that is at fault. Sure, the memes aren't liked by everyone, but as long as they don't affect the Roleplay as a whole, I don't see an issue with em.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:17 pm

I have some thoughts on this matter. Wasn't sure how to feel about this at first. But not really happy, nevertheless. Mostly because I should be working on a thesis paper and resumes, but I guess this is what it is.

Staff have some legitimate complaints. But the way how this is handled? I'm not pleased at all. Some fault can be found on both sides. But on our side, there is a kind of pettiness that makes my wince along with another staff member. I'm aware I am at fault on this as well with the recent events so far. And there's some people (both staff and membership) take chatbox rping too seriously, but at that time I'm more laughing at you guys to be honest. But this ongoing issue has gotten to the point where it's going to have to be addressed as a community since this stretches far beyond the recent events. We need to get a discussion and then a resolution going on.

I get that staff get fed up being the punching bag for the community. But that's part of the job here, guys. We're literally the site's janitors and that's something all of you should have accepted coming in. If you want to grumble about how the community is being unreasonable to let some steam out, that's fine. But taking it to this level of pettiness is just deplorable.

Some of you are just outright apathetic to the job and not really doing what you're supposed to do, ending up in a passive position not doing anything. If you don't like the staffship, no one's stopping you from quitting. As far as those who still want to take the job, learn to detach your emotions from your work. It's something what even I need help on, but it's something all of us need to endeavor to do. Try not to take anything personally, keep shit civil.

On the other hand, membership needs to chill at times and let them do their job. I get you guys get angry at us for not doing our jobs or doing it perfectly, which I don't blame you guys either on this as well. But, we're not perfect. Far from it. If anything, I'm a good example of this. I fuck up quite a bit. Please acknowledge this better. You guys can let us know where we screwed up, but keep it civil. If you keep it civil, then it makes our jobs and our progress to become better staff faster.

There's a kind of factionalism going on when Endymion came in, which I think is cool. But there are people who like to harp on the others for being the other faction as if trying to get off on their hate boner. I won't state who they are, but I want them to stop it. Or I'm going to have to start slinging the banhammer.

Memes. I honestly think on the part of the staff, you need to just ignore it if you can't relate to it. You're making too much out of it. But on the other hand, I understand when it gets to the point that it ruins immersion in the RP when they're used. You guys know who you are. Keep it down and away from the RP, we all came here to enjoy playing make-believe. Let's not ruin it too much, alright?

Personality clashes. I hope I don't have to say much on this. We have a "diverse" community here with all sorts of personalities. I know some people tick you off faster than the other, but as I said before, keep that shit civil. No need for more drama as usual. This goes double for staff, since we're staff after all.

tl;dr Calm down, all of you. Let's stay civil and not act like manchildren. Get some discussion going on and not be butthurt peons.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:41 pm

Grantus wrote:
Where to begin....I know that there are people being petty in the chat from time to time, and it's honestly so disappointing to see staff and other members have to make a big deal out of this. Phile has made a thread where you can sign up for mod duties if anyone was confused, since we have all checked it out. Phile also posted here that you can run a battle for some pocket change. Ask chat to PM you for a fight or check in with them to see if a battle needs to be ran. It's not hard and I don't see why it is being made out to be hard.

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t5193-update-to-mods

http://newarcana.forumotion.com/t3711-moderator-duties

I am not sure why people are giving out different answers regarding rules. We made a topic where certain unspoken rules are clarified for more detail, and are open for discussion in case there are inconsistencies, so what's the problem? Are there examples of this happening? There are times, generally the afternoon when I am at work or class where I cannot be here, so if they are happening then in chat or off screen, I have no idea. In that regard, people do need to have some communication. Why no one has brought this up or resolved it in our private chat really boggles the mind if apparently it is a big enough problem to comment on.

I have said this time, and time, and time again in private chat, but if someone is causing a ruckus, start laying down the law. Phile has said this before, where if you think people are being toxic, you need to kick, ban if you have to. I know I have had to reiterate this several times in our Skype group; also I have said that if you're unsure, bring another staff member into this. We have plenty of them for a reason guys. It should not be that difficult to judge when someone is being passive aggressive in chat. We all know the people who can do it, and there is just no excuse to just let it happen if you genuinely perceive it as something hurtful; joke or not. If I sat there and saw someone belittling someone else, and I have warned them to stop even if they claim it was a joke before continuing on, they'd be temp-banned. That's that. All of you should be reflecting this behavior. It may sound ludicrous, but there is a visible line between genuine jokes/memes/whatever, and condescension/rudeness/etc.

For the community, again I have not seen every little scrap that has happened, but the stuff the mods have talked about recently that I have seen are so petty I could cry. Both some staff and some members pick at each other to anger one another, and it's so dumb I can't help but wonder if everyone is just making too much out of too little. I know there are moments where it does get bad, we have seen them before, so both the staff and the members should be acting on good behavior. Humor is perfectly fine, but when I see staff get so confrontational and snarky, that's just as bad if not worse than members getting angry. We don't get paid for this, we treat this as a hobby, so why are we suddenly letting people get on our nerves and turn us into children who will argue over little things to other people? It has to end, first on our side. No more complaining in private chat instead of warning them if they are being rude, actually do something about it. Not everyone has to like everyone, but at the very least know when an argument is not worth pursuing and stay quiet, or lay out disciplinary measures. You are not going to be able to control how every person feels about you.

I have never not been happy with who was selected to be staff, and I am more than glad that you guys are at the very least currently on board. I do want to see people have fun here and seeing you all disheartened does not make me happy. If you don't think you want to be staff, then message Phile or Essay, or even me if they don't respond. No need to do something you don't find fun anymore. I know I have said things that some of you may not like, please do not take it as confrontational, it's just what I have gathered recently after seeing this topic and other people's conversations. I am still on the site pretty often, just not as much due to work and school, but more than enough to where if you need me, you know where to find me. Please take this to heart and understand that I don't think you all are bad staff, just that this is a sort of scolding from an old man like me.

Quoted what I said in the mod room so there's transparency while removing names mentioned. Like I said before, I don't think every conflict is worth giving the time of day of. We have been together on this site for more than a year. Seeing us squabble like kids is so irritating to watch when you can just ignore it and not start something out of it. I havent seen every legitimate fight however and apparently there are still actual arguments that I miss. Ive never felt one side was entirely at fault. But no one is talking to each other cause everyone prefers sitting in their corner and gossiping behind everyones back; both normal members and staff. If members are being genuinely disrespected you all need to correct yourselves or you'll just be removed by Phile or Essay or someone else. Members, understand that we are going to make decisions that won't please everyone and we will make mistakes as Godai said. We ask that you understand or take the attitude elsewhere. Staff isn't doing this out of genuine malice I assure you as far as I see, we just do what we think is best and what can try to please everyone without upsetting people. We are always always always open to Pms and many of you have our Skype contact info. All of us can be contacted. If another staff is giving you trouble, tell another staff member. If you don't think you can trust any of us; I do apologize number one but send a message to Phile. If nothing else she will do something about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:05 pm

REEEEEEE

Ok guys.

So, first things first.

I think we should actually attempt to address the problems instead of just blaming people. I've noticed the blame game go around very well around here, you know. we barely cite any evidence and simply say we've seen this or that, especially in the staff thread that went up, but when? . Someones always the cause of something, but is the problem ever fixed? No. Names were previously listed for example, but would it have been really hard for anyone to just step in for a sec and rectify whatever problem was stated? If staff cannot just simply talk to someone reasonably [I'm not saying EVERYBODy can't. But I'm saying thats certainly an issue] Then we have a problem, especially with what grantus said about private complaints. If shit happens in the chat, just deal with it as well, plain and simple. If a member bashed another member or bloo bloo blah blah, staff should deal with it yes. If these problems were serious, they've also clearly been around for more than one day, and nothing was stopping staff members that were aware of it from stepping in and trying to at least say something.


But enough about that,these are problems that have clearly built up over time, rather than say who said she said, I say we rectify things. Law down some law like gran said, perhaps establish some rules [sound familiar]? Be a little stricter with things.


Lost posts what I consider a good opinion, however when have members blatantly gone and not cared about S.LS?I'll be honest a majority of people are just busy, or preoccupied themselves with Plot or other business. I myself am very burnt out and just lack motivation with most people to create an interesting plot. When has this ridicule over taking the RP seriously ever occured as well? These are serious questions as it should be something the community itself is capable of noticing and staffs responsibility to notice this, and frankly it'd be good to see some examples or occurences too. Not necessarily names, but I myself [Nor has anyone I've really known] seen this to my knowledge. I'm not citing myself as an omnipotent source, but simply stating what Ik, and what People Ik know as an aspect of the community. The community clearly doesn't mind rp [We're a fucking rp forum lol]. I'm not saying your point is invalid, but there hasn't really been people saying shit. Unless you can state more beyond "this and this happened" and we have other people clearly seeing it as well. From what you say of people ridiculing other concepts, if you see it, why not stop it?

Lets be honest, when shit happens. We cant be apathetic about it either, you know? Problems come up, try to solve em and discourage em from happening in the first place either.  I'd say more if I wasn't about to write an utterly pointless essay. What I do not get is why that staff thread went public, it could have easily been just a private discussion, people could have been organized to be on the look out, be a little stricter, and that'd be the end of it. It just seems more like an attempted call out Im done rather than actually fixing problems.

Frankly Gran has a nice point over here as well with what he's said. Also staff ain't perfect, I'm not expecting you people to magically whip everything into shape in the span of two seconds, people make mistakes and thats perfectly fine. Do not be afraid to call out mistakes, but don't get at them all about it if they actually tried like really. However there are some clear problems that are goin down. It's more important to deal with things and settle whatevers the problem rather than just simply speak about it behind closed doors and thats that, but within reason. It's nice that the people that are trying are atleast seeing this and will probably listen, but look if your apathetic to the job of staff and will just look and things and go ugh, don't bother being staff then if you don't wanna to deal with it. That's something you accepted that you may face being a member of staff.

When it comes to memes for the love of god their OOC memes. Unless they get too big or somethin, it seems """"""""ok"""""""""" rn.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:05 pm

Before I say anything else, I'm going to get this out of the way. It may sound dismissive, maybe even harsh, but as far as I'm concerned, it's the truth and it needs to be said because we aren't going to get anywhere by beating around the bush. With that in mind, the point I'd like to make is this: cry me a river. Some of the staff seem to have this idea in their head that they're the persecuted, the primary target of a thoroughly corrupted and hateful community, that they're the "punching bags" for the community as Godai put it. But from what I've seen, that's not the case. Hell, it's far from it.

I've been staff across a multitude of different websites and over the years, I've dealt with my fair share of toxic individuals and communities. I know what it's like to be the target of a witch hunt, so trust me when I say that you aren't one. Have you ever had people openly disrespect you and your authority on a regular basis? Have you had those same people go on to relentlessly attack any member who disagrees with them, compare the administrator to Stalin, try to invent and spread slurs used non-jokingly to refer to the moderators as "the other", and overall attempt to paint you as mustache-twirling villains who are deliberately trying to run the site into the ground? What about the chatbox; have you ever had to remove it from the site entirely and replace it with a substitute just because of how mean-spirited and cancerous it could get without a mod monitoring it 24/7? No? That's what I thought. See, on sites that I've been, we've actually had to ban people before. Crazy, right? Well, no. Not exactly. I can only speak for my own personal experiences, but the vast majority of sites I've been on (both as staff and as a regular member) have had situations where they had to issue out punishments of that sort of nature. It's a natural part of dealing with members; if they're too disruptive and won't take the hints or warnings you give them then they have to go, sometimes even permanently depending on the exact circumstances. On New Arcana this isn't really something that happens, at least not more than once in a blue moon. Why is that? I'd argue it's because the community, despite the fact that some people see it as toxic, is actually one of the best that I've ever been a part of.

Now, does that mean it's perfect? Of course not. The community has some issues, particularly when it comes to people dividing into cliques. But when I log onto the chatbox, I generally have a good time, and rarely do I bear witness to anything worse than minor, petty squabbles. Of course, as I mentioned before, this is only my personal experience and I can't say that my impressions are the 100% objective truth. But as a human being, I make judgements based off what I'm aware of and what I perceive, and my personal judgement is that things are nowhere near as bad as people seem to be eager to make them out to be. The behavior the memberbase exhibits is especially admirable when one takes into account the fact that there are no list of organized rules or guidelines for them to adhere or refer to (something Deshi argued in her initial post that we should have, a sentiment I thoroughly agree with).

I will concede that there are some trust issues between staff and the members, but you can't just force members to trust you. And while normally I'd argue that a lot of the distrust is unwarranted, after seeing a discussion that should have been public get posted to a staff-only section, I can't really bring myself to argue that they're entirely unfounded.

Part of the reason people don't want to bring issues up to certain staff members is probably because, as Godai said, they're too passive. People doubt they'll actually deal with the problem because in a lot of cases staff simply sits by, watches and maybe issues a few warnings here or there. At the same time, however, they can't be blamed for this. The problem is that there aren't any rules or guidelines for how members should behave, so staff isn't going to know when or how to deal with these problems when they come up. Yes, we have an unspoken rules thread, but currently it's more focused on mechanical issues than behavioral ones, and it's a far cry from a list of do's and don'ts that would prevent everyone from stumbling around confusedly in the dark with only common sense and their subjective outlook to guide them. Without easily accessible guidelines, practically everyone is a target for either disciplinary action or accusations of abuse of power, and the only means of defense they have for themselves is basic common sense.

Some seem to take issue with the community's silliness. I agree with Godai on this: the proper response is simply to deal with or ignore it. From what I've seen, it's mostly been kept OOC, and the overwhelming majority of people either enjoy partaking in it or are indifferent to it. And honestly, I can't think of anything more threatening to people having fun then trying to force a serious mindset on them because you dislike how many jokes they're making in out-of-character sections of the site. Seriously guys, come on.

There have been a few incidents where this had bled over to actual topics, but I don't think it's problematic. It only happened a couple of times and it never got to the point where it derailed a thread or ruined a serious, emotional moment. Even if that did happen, what are we supposed to do? Are we gonna start tone policing people's posts and forcing them to make their characters react to every single event with dramatic shouting, angst, and tears? You might as well just write people's posts for them.

Also, those incidents have never broken immersion, at least not any that I'm aware of.

Factionbashing is a nonexistent problem and a continually perpetuated myth. Almost every time it's come up has been as a joke and even when it hasn't it's been fairly civil discussions about the pros and cons of each faction. There have been maybe one or two exceptions that come to mind, but those could have been easily dealt with via a request to take the argument to private messages and/or a quick few kicks from the chatbox. I also don't appreciate how the Cadets are being thrown under the bus and characterised as the ones who take this sort of thing seriously. I've seen more terrorists discuss factions unironically than I have Cadets and I've never seen an NC refuse to roleplay with someone because they're a terrorist (nor vice versa). Quite frankly, I'm annoyed by this "NCs are cancer" train, especially since if factionalism is a real problem then generalizing all the players aligned to one of the groups as toxic and harmful to the community without listing any evidence will only make the issue even worse.

The last thing I'll address for the time being is social links. I can't speak for others of my stripe, but there are many reasons I'm so slow to reply to them; I'm depressed and find it hard to motivate myself to do much of anything, I'm a habitual procrastinator, I recently became staff on an upcoming site and am busy with my duties there, real life frequently conflicts with my schedule, I'm just flat-out lazy, etc. Should I post more often? Yeah, of course. I won't lie, I have a problem, but it's a problem that's rooted in and stems from me as a person, not the community and their outlook on roleplaying.

Tl;dr, the community isn't as bad as you guys are making it out to be, and the majority of problems that were brought up were either non-issues or nowhere near as large in scope as they were made out to be imo.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:29 pm

I'd like to weigh in on this issue, both for what's been brought up in this thread and the other one that was posted earlier. I haven't been here as long as many others but I think that could lend some perspective as an outsider looking in.

So I'll start with how I see things and be a little personal about it. I've noticed the toxicity in the site environment to an extent but more importantly how it's handled. Some people can get out of hand in the Chat Box, sure, but it's civil most of the time. Most of the conflict I see comes from when people get into a row and refuse to drop it or change subject. Worse still, and this is something I myself have done and ain't proud of, is that people will jump offsite or run to PMs to talk about other players behind their backs (this'll be a point later, trust me). When I joined up in October I enjoyed how the community was at the time and that was part of the reason I chose to stick around instead of hopping about for a month and becoming a ghost. Everyone was friendly and helpful and the Chat Box was a good place to just chill and make jokes and stuff. And then I hit the Community Wall.

I'm not in any of the Skype groups, I'm not relevant to the plot, I've got no context on anything that's happened previously in site history. When I was making threads to Awaken it was difficult to do so because everyone was busy with the dungeon or wasn't available or didn't want to thread with me at first. I feel like that's because (and here's that point I was getting to) I'm not in the clique. The site's filled with a slew of old vets from previous plots that've been here a while and I'm not in that crew. As a new member outside of the loop, this sort of discussion strikes me as infighting between forum members... except the problem is the community is so tiny and involved that you can't really just ex-communicate someone and never thread with them again like you can on larger sites. Soooooo what's my point again? My point is that, from an outsider perspective not involved in anything, this looks like a he-said she-said finger pointing contest. Y'all aren't being a community, you're acting like a group of cliques and it's causing problems.

Now with that out of the way, let's start being productive, shall we? I didn't come here to bitch and moan, I came here to discuss and help. Let's start with what Deshi started with, Staff, and I'll be laying down the perceived problems and proposing solutions as I go down the line. These might not be the best ideas, but hey, it's a start.

The Staff and Confusion
It was mentioned that one of the problems we've been having involves mods contradicting other mods on rulings made. It's become a topic of note that when running dungeons, creating enemies, or making hard rulings on strange circumstances that nothing is written down anywhere. A hot button issue is that there are many rules that are passed by word of mouth and everyone just goes off their best judgement. I've asked about and seen a few times this has been brought up, referencing running dungeons or other rulings and from what I've seen those in the know act like it's common sense while everyone disagrees. Please people, it's not common sense if you don't know.

So how do we address this? I propose that guidelines are made, of course, references for the mods to use when performing these functions. Something such as that likely won't be quick or easy to do, but it should be helpful in the long run. Every tabletop RPG has a Dungeon Master's guide, we could use one ourselves, such as how many stats enemies against a certain number of players at a certain level should have to distribute. If it helps, mods running dungeons should collaborate with other more experienced mods to ensure that they're learning the right way to do things.

Also, as an RPG your rules are law. Rules are how you play the game. These rules need to be clearly understood, communicated, and chiseled in stone but only a select few know what's going on in that department. I've seen this referenced in the "Moderator Duties" thread, but if only certain mods know the true interpretation of the rules then maybe those mods should be the only ones with the right to answer those sort of questions or the interpretations of those rules should be more flexible.

Most importantly of all, I believe this all is caused by a lack of information. Word of mouth, not written down, all that jazz. So we're starting to collect stuff and write it down, but here's the problem I find with that: it's in another thread. As a newer user I can confirm that all of this information is a bitch and a half to find. I need to do a Forum Search just to find the Black Market every time I want to look at things in it. This newer information should be edited into the proper rules ASAP if it's confirmed, it can even be someone's job to do so if that works best. If that's not realistic, sticky posts of that nature to make sure the point gets across. If anyone else won't do it, I as a user can at least volunteer to make a chronicle thread or Table of Contents thread for resources that aren't stickied or easy to find.

When mods can't agree on rulings it discredits authority. People don't take you seriously if you look like you don't know what you're talking about and you'll lose their respect, coming straight from the NCO Handbook here people. This leads me to my next topic.

The Staff Feel Like They Aren't Being Respected

This is also a major problem. I've been a mod on another site (RPGuild) and a mod's duties were typically to enforce the rules. When mods can't agree what the rules are people feel like you're not doing your job right. Now I never had to deal with an RPG system in my site, but the base concept is the same. Part of this can be circumvented by keeping debates on rulings behind closed doors or deferring to answer when other judgements can be introduced like Gran said. By keeping the debates away from the public eye the machine looks like it runs smoother. People correcting each other where everyone can see makes others lose respect for the person being corrected. As an NCO, basic SOP was if you need to correct someone you take them aside to do it, and you don't call someone out within a group unless they're extra fucked up. Hell, the fact that this thread exists is sort of doing that, but it's good to clear the air once in a while. I believe a lot of headache can go away by allowing the ruling mod to speak freely at the moment and if any other mods disagree it can be taken backstage, discussed, and the original mod can come forth with the correction.

Another thing that was brought up about the lack of respect for the staff is that certain mods don't feel like they're being useful or people ignore them. So give mods more power. As I've said before, a mod's duty is to enforce the rules, but the rules are nowhere to be found.

We need rules, people.

This is the first RP site I've been to that doesn't have a Code of Conduct or Site Rules to it, and that's an issue. Site Rules empower both the mods and the community. It gives members certain rights and protection on the site to RP in a place they feel comfortable with. It empowers mods by having clear rules on what they can do in a situation and justification for resorting to punishments like temp-bans. Mods aren't sure when they can issue bans or not because there's no guidelines for when it's appropriate, so let's fix that. Maybe a warning system can be implemented to stop repeat behavior or something so people will need to give mods more respect and pay attention. Mod's words should be law, and laws have consequences when broken. This won't stop the fighting but it'll sure cut down on it if it becomes clear that bans can be issued for flamers and harassers.

The Community is Toxic

This is a little more complex because sociology's fluid like that, but if people aren't comfortable staying on the site that can't stand. I've stated that implementing rules can help this issue, but it's also been brought up how certain members don't want to cooperate or RP on an RP site and the factionism that takes place. As it stands I don't see a lot that can be done about that without overhauling the game. In its nature the Endymion plot has multiple factions competing to win, which in and of itself is most likely the root of the problem. People will brag about how much better their faction is because their team is winning and they're gonna play to win. Yes, people want to write their own stories that follow the plot as an RP should, but it's now a game you can win. In DnD you're always gonna have the Bard that writes his own limericks and asks NPCs for their name and occupation, and you'll always have the min-maxed Paladin that just wants the highest DPS Smite damage. This is an inherent problem with roleplayers vs. roll-players and not one that might be able to be fixed or even should... but I've ideas if we want to fix that line of thinking. It could be possible to reward players more for Social Links while making the requirements stricter for attaining the next rank, which could encourage power players to roleplay more often, but the people who are here to beat the game are here to beat the game. Not a lot can be done to change their minds.

Of course, the factions themselves come with more cliques which I think is the base of the community issue. Just as above, not a lot can be done about this. People are gonna like who they're gonna like and take sides and whatnot. What we can do is encourage the breaking of this sort of mindset by being more inclusive and welcoming as a whole, and involving more cooperation between members and stuff they can get involved in as a community vice staying in their little Skype corner or whatever. I don't really have any sort of idea on how to do this outside of stuff like events that incorporate the entire site's cooperation kind of like the Christmas Event did when everyone was excited to see what they'd get and complaining that they got screwed Razz.

The Memes

You can't stop the memes. Like, seriously, that's not a joke, you can't stop people from making memes. People like to share in jokes and mess around and have fun on the sight and in the Chat Box, as I've witnessed it's a pretty integral part of the community. Best you can do is stop people from spamming them by making a rule about it.

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So that's all I've got for now, but I wanna fix this and I'd love to hear feedback. You guys are great, but if this sort of uproar is gonna be a regular thing and if the system keeps being broken the way it is I'll up and leave. And I don't wanna do that because I enjoy it here.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:37 pm

From what I've seen, no, we haven't really been punching bags per se. But I remember the outcry from some people when we were dealing with some troublemaker, and people jumping to this one's defense, even though the troublemaker had been warned several times. Like Godai said, if you want better staff, then let us do our job, so we can improve. We aren't perfect, but please, just let us do our thing. It's easier and quicker that way. Sure, I'm all for discussions, but when people come in and tell me how to do my job, I'm not happy. And I'm sure 90% of you are the same when it comes to the subject. No-one likes a backseat driver. I took on this job as a moderator because I genuinely wanted to help the community. And I want it to stay that way.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:44 pm

I gave it some time to address to certain things that stood out to me. Of course, what I would not mention here is either something I can agree with or something that flew by my head. Or even something others have addressed already brilliantly and there would be nothing more I could add to make it more clear, or rather, redundant.

"We're not perfect".
Alright, so? Neither is everyone here, that's out of question. However, admitting your nature as a person with flaws does not excuse you from your mistakes, as a member or as a staff. It's rather easy and insensitive to shield every possible bad deed, consciour or not, under a simple acknowledgment. "Yes, I'm not perfect" only goes so far if you're not truly willing to understand where your mistake lies and do what is within your position to improve. I'm not trying to get on a moral high ground, but I simply cannot take this seriously when, more than once, I've addressed what seemed to be reasonable issues worth of some second, careful look and in return I earned some response like "this is my poll, I'm the one who made it, that's none of your business" or "this has always been like this, it'll remain like this because I don't want to consider it might be wrong and need changes". It's commendable the whole "you can come to us to say what worries you or to say where I did wrong" speech, but it falls useless if, the moment you're indeed made aware of where you acted wrong, you shield it under the belief that "I don't think so", "it's just MY opinion" or the tiresome "this is not the place for drama" saying to maintain the comfort zone. Before stating that some people prefer to "gossip behind everyone's back", you might consider that perhaps there isn't that much of an opening for honesty as you think there is. You can't demand trust if you don't make yourself reliable in first place, and maybe, just maybe, self-criticism is something that should be encouraged around.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:54 pm

Well Jerry, I can understand where you're coming from to a degree, but your sentiments clash with one another. If you're still learning how to do your job then never being criticized for your rulings or actions is going to hinder you in the long-run, not help you. That being said, however, the problem would be nonexistent (or at least much easier to deal with) if we had an actual list of rules to refer to instead of just subjective whims and unspoken laws.

Seriously guys. Can we just get rules? Please? lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:00 pm

We've wanted this for a while, lmao. But people threw a hissyfit about it. So we didn't.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:11 pm

Princess Jerry wrote:
We've wanted this for a while, lmao. But people threw a hissyfit about it. So we didn't.

IIRC, Phile didn't want to do a rules on behavior either. Trying to keep things pretty liberal. So there's that.

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:12 pm

There is way too much going on in this, and I don't think I'd be able to address everything at this point without my essay ending up as an incomprehensible mess jumping from one matter to another...

But for now, I'll just say I actually kind of agree with Shun on this one. I wouldn't exactly say the community is toxic per se, definitely not in the sense Azami is painting out by comparing our issues to the horrible ones that happened somewhere else. I do however thing that a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings do happen regularly, with people easily sweeping away an opinion that doesn't exactly fit in with what the majority is currently set on. I would be more okay with the whole joke/meme thing maybe, if people sometimes looked outside their own bubble as well. Yeah, people don't like their fun ruined alright, but why is that assumed to be one-sided and okay? Just like a bunch of people may want to meme around nearly 24/7, there are some people that may want a different kind of environment once in a while. Is that a bad thing?

In lieu of that, I say we are all eligible to our own opinion. What tends to often happen though is that a certain opinion is held more sacred, for whatever reasons, and the rest is expected to just mold themselves to it in the end. Even if it is one that is not related to some hardcore rules or such (which as has been stated plenty times by now, we somehow still don't quite have after all this time the site has been alive for already). I will admit that I tend to in fact take on a more passive role when I can. Why? Because as Shun just said, more often than not, putting in your honest 2 cents is met with some sort of wall. I prefer being able to speak my mind when need be, instead of having to put up fronts and masks to be this detached statue rule enforcer, like Godai is trying to say mods should be. I didn't originally come to an RP forum to take on a role that is not who I am, but simply to do what I like to do, and that is RP itself. And I just sometimes really feel like the preferred way of dealing with things here is to try and create a sense of conformity in a way, where everyone puts on their best face and avoids being honest, because what happens when people are? People get mad, insulted and we have drama on our hands in some way, which we obviously don't want to have...

I feel better staying in my own space instead of butting heads with everyone...because I am just not the commander type of person. If I know I can honestly speak with someone, and not get talked all over when the majority has an opinion different than mine, then I will. Otherwise, it feels like an extreme waste of energy for me. Maybe I am indeed not the kind of person for being a mod in this situation, and I will not claim otherwise if you guys think that way. I mean, there are times when I did have my ideas on how stuff should be rules, but many times it is like throwing peas at the glass when people are set in their own opinions at the end of it all. And I guess I just get completely talked over easily in a fast paced Skype group talk, because I operate better when I have some time to think on the best solution...which is not an option there. Woe is me? Maybe, but I guess it just is what it is. I've always done better at one-on-one talks and slower debates, so oh wells.

So hey, I guess we are all who we are in the end...some of you may support the 'let's act nice, and no drama will happen then', and then there are those of us who just want things to be flat out as they are, even if it means dealing with negatives sometimes. I think that debates about possible negatives should be able to be solved in calm manner as well. It is part of life, and I say detachment from emotions doesn't have that much play in there. We can try to be cool and rigid all we want, but how we feel about things won't just poof and stop existing because we say so.

And on the note of public discussion/hiding. I personally just decided to share some of my opinion when I saw the topic put up. I actually did not realize shenanigans happened until it blew and then it just went into 'what the hell' territory. I suppose it probably wasn't the best decision to keep things away, but as I said before, due to a lot of people perceiving 'conformity to majority' as the best way, I can see why some may not think stirring the waters is the smartest idea, and that solving it behind the door keeps things chill.

....and I ended up ranting anyway -.-

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PostSubject: Re: Enough is Enough [Community Discussion]   Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:34 pm

Ok... Take this with a grain of salt cus frankly this is to much to read and at this point it seems just way to much discussion for a simple issue.

Ya see what we have all forgotten is the one golden rule of any group of friends that have gotten together for a community such as ours. ehem...

DON'T BE A DICK



That is littearly all this boils down to. Like... in total. The problem with the memes: If someone is annoyed by it stop. The problem with people being mean and toxic: If it's offended by it, stop. If your feeling drained by the site and need a break, take a break.


Look, everyone. We are here to have fun, and right now it isn't fun. I am not having around here anymore, not like the old days anyway. I love this site and the people here, but come on guys, lets not all be jerks to one another. It's not Mods vs Normies or camp A vs camp B. We're all friends here so why all the animosity....

But hey, that's just the ramblings of an old Ranger.... Thats my two  cents. Don't be a dick and remember the even goldener rule.

NONE OF THIS MATTERS


This is a game, a hobby, a friendly site were we can all go to have fun. So just... Relax people! None of this matters. Let go of your grudges and your animosity. It's not worth it, it just isn't.

So yeah. Relax and let this be a fun site where we have fun.

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